Welcome to JULIE's Toolbox Talks podcast, your go-to resource for safe digging and protecting Illinois's underground infrastructure. Each episode, we'll share practical tips, real stories, and expert insights to help you dig smart, stay safe, and keep your projects on solid ground. Brought to you by JULIE Illinois Facility Notification Center.
Hello and welcome to JULIE's Toolbox Talks podcast brought to you by JULIE, the Illinois Facility Notification Center. I'm your host, Brian MacKenzie. Thanks for joining us today. We are shining a spotlight on an organization that plays a critical role in safe digging across Illinois, the Illinois Commerce Commission. We'll explore what they do, how they enforce a law that keeps our underground infrastructure protected, and what real world impact that enforcement has out in the field.
I'm excited to bring in our guest today, Bill Daniel. Bill brings 30 plus years of utility damage prevention experience, including 28 years in locating and marking operations throughout Illinois, Iowa, and Missouri. He currently serves as a manager of the Illinois one call education and enforcement at the Illinois Commerce Commission. Bill also was involved in the United States Air Force for 11 years as a law enforcement investigator. Welcome, Bill. I had no idea. All the years that I've known you, I had no idea that you were a law enforcement investigator for the It's amazing.
Yeah. I don't I don't talk a lot about it, but uh yeah, it was a good experience.
I think it uh it kind of it explains I've always fascinated how numbers people I mean, you're a numbers guy. Full disclosure, guys, everybody on the on our podcast today, I've worked with Bill 25 of his 30 years out in the field. we've worked either together or for him in some fashion or the way. So, I've invited him here today because I really feel that the ICC is crucial in into what we do. So, why don't you just tell our viewers, Bill, what is the Illinois Commerce Commission?
Okay. Well, the Illinois Commerce Commission is actually a regulating body for a lot of the a lot of the public utilities. Um my division um one call enforcement. Um it's well we changed the name now it's one call education enforcement since we're doing a little bit more education rather than just enforcement. Um the Illinois Damage Prevention Act designated the ICC as being the enforcing body of the act and that's where this division was developed. Um I began about five years ago. um came in as an investigator and then uh we've got three investigators uh plus myself that cover the entire state um for uh for JULIE enforcement.
Does that include Chicago?
No, Chicago. No, no, we don't do the city of Chicago. Anything that the digger the digger covers in uh in Chicago, Cook County is uh is out of our jurisdiction. So just wherever JULIE's footprint is.
Gotcha. Understood. So the enforcement side, what are some of the most common violations that you see?
Well, we see violations on both sides, either facility operators or excavators. Um facility operators, the primary issue that we have is just timeliness. Um failing to failing to get to the tickets on time. Um, second to that would be just failing to mark accurately mark the facility if they do get there. Um, for excavators, you know, it's there's two major ones and it's not having a valid ticket. Um, that could mean they didn't call JULIE at all or they dug outside the extent or the ticket expired or they dug early. Any variation of that. Um, and then the other is just failing to use due care. You know, they don't pothole. You know, they bore under a gas line or a communication line without pothole and they hit it. Um the uh um or just, you know, using mechanical equipment too close, you know, within the tolerance zone. Tolerance zone is 18 in and you got folks that get a little way out there and put a backhoe within that 18inch tolerance and end up uh you know having some conversations with us.
Yeah. One of the things that when I located that I saw in the field and even today is that the excavators they don't go down to the depth of the proposed excavation. They stop at the first line that they see and then they think oh that's it 6 in deep and curl that bucket and you know out comes a new one. We are not a state that removes the old utility facilities. That's I could see where that would be one of the issues.
Yeah. Yeah. That's another That's another one that uh um even though it's been in the act for a while. Um the uh education on for excavators learning to do that, you know, we'll get calls say I'm going down six feet. It's like, well, you still got to go down six feet, you know. Um so it just takes more education and you know, making them aware of that responsibility.
I'm glad you brought that up because it's that's pro tip number one, ladies and gentlemen. If you are an excavator out here, if you're a homeowner, if you're a professional excavator, 18 inches either side of the mark to the depth of your proposed excavation is what you are required to hand dig or vacuum excavate. And we say vacuum excavate, Bill, does does it require a locate request to use vacuum excavation?
Uh, technically no. But if you're excavating, you're usually potholeing. uh when when vac works being done, it's usually pottling an existing facility. So, you know, 90% of the time, 99% of the time, the facility is already marked, and that's kind of what they're using the back for. So, yeah, the vacuum excavation is a great way. Um CJ has actually said it's it's one of the safest means of exposing utility facility. And the only thing I want to caution everybody on you is before you go out and buy a brand new truck of a jetack because be very careful because the pressures on those can actually blow the coatings off the gas mane and that kind of defeats the whole purpose of why you got the vacuum excavation. So be cautious, you know, when you use those things too because they can be they pretty strong as well.
Yeah. Yeah, that's for sure. You also brought up that that they enforce both sides and you know it always seems I always hear from excavators well the locators never get in trouble and I just want to clarify that with our listeners today that you do in fact enforce both sides of the ball here. I mean it's excavators as well as locators.
Yeah, that's correct. You know I I would say probably over the past three or four years that the bulk of the violations are issued on facility operators. Um, you know, I think everybody's aware that the volume in the state, the ticket volume has increased over the past several years. Um, a lot of fiber going in the ground, a lot of larger projects, and you know, it's all resulted in in time on this issues. Um, and you know, basically over the last, you know, three or four years, we've issued uh assessed probably over $12 million in fines. Um, on both parties.
So, that's a big number. Big number. I'm glad you brought up the fiber work and the large projects because that's something that that will never go away even when the law was kind of changed to help the locators and give them a little bit more ability to push back and then we kind of changed the joint meet process to make it mandatory and for everybody to attend and with the ability to hand out the maps and I mean how do you feel how do you feel about these large projects? I mean do you think they're worth it? The what's the advantages of pre-marketing and giving these maps? Does it really and truly give a better locate?
I think so if it's used properly and you know and you know the way it's written in the act um how it defines what a large project is and then what's required I think if all parties involved the excavators and facility operators if they all play by the same rules it it's a great it's a great system. Um, I mean, you can lay out we've got X amount of footage we need to put in over the next six weeks. I need, you know, a thousand feet a day. Um, it can be really specific. Um, but again, it really takes it takes a buyin from both parties to make that. And I think, you know, we probably need to tweak that a little bit more just to give it a little bit more depth to uh to make it a valuable tool for everybody.
Yeah, I'm with you. I see the value in it. I see the value with going to positive response. It's just getting through the bugs, getting through, you know, the nuances. It's still new. We're still in, you know, month five. But I just wish if there was one thing that that some a listener could take away, if you're a member company and you're you've got these subcontractors you're wanting to hire and you want to put all this work in, please, please, please don't just throw that all on your subcontractors. Please take some initiative behind that. do the advanced noise joint meet 6 to 8 months in advance. Let locators know what's coming out there. I'm going to tell you I kind of view this a little bit differently, Bill. You same way you came with me, but you can kind of see what happens when there aren't enough locators out there. The locators really do make a difference. And when there aren't enough out there, things can come behind. When we see the storm of the fiber work that we have right now, trying to get these jobs scheduled and lined up can be pretty difficult.
Oh, for sure. For sure. And you know, and I think there's been some recent changes in the act that that kind of uh address that. I mean, like I said, you can only put so many boots on the ground because there's only so many boots to fill. Um, and you can only locate so much at one time. But, uh, I think some of the recent changes by not making the day of the call count. Um, the beyond reasonable control areas. Um, and you know, requiring the joint meets, we spoke about that. Those are all some changes that that could be that were made that you know kind of impact the uh you know the timeliness and gives that facility operators you know a little bit more time to get to them. So yeah, because they in talking to some of the fiber operators, you know, I mean, we're constantly trying to find that magic bullet. And I want everybody to know it's not just Illinois. This is a 50 in other 50 states. This is the same topic. It keeps coming up. And I'm not one to make excuses, guys. I don't want you to sit there and think, "Oh, it's another excuse." I wish people truly understood the amount of time that it took to make a locator. You know, you just don't say, "Oh, there's your book. Two weeks later, you're out. You're after." You're talking six months to a year, guys, to make a really good locator. And the reason I say a year is because you got to see it, smell it, touch it. I mean, it's an industry where it's going to smack you in the face one day, pat you on the back on another. I mean, it is a it's a constant moving uh animal. It really, really is. And again, not looking for excuses, but I just want the people to know your excavators out there because I constantly hear just go get another locator. There is no locator closet. I mean, you know, Bill, you you've dealt with 30 years. What's your thought on that?
Well, that that is true. I mean, like I said, there's got to be negotiation on both parts, especially with the fiber that's coming in. Um, you know, I think in what I've read, too, is that, you know, those folks are going to have some of the same issues with this bead work going on in 50 states. Um, you know, the availability of contract or uh excavators that can come in and do the work. I mean, you know, we both know that in Illinois there's a lot of out of state contractors that come in. Um but then you know you got the purchase of the conduit and pick and the and the fiber. I mean there's going to be a shortage of all that as well. So um excavators are going to kind of feel kind of the same pain um with trying to get all this stuff in at the same time as well. So yeah, absolutely. It's just uh it we're all very closely it's one big group really. I mean a damage prevention it is a shared responsibility to both sides as you mentioned not only from the members and the locators from the utility side and the and their members too when they're doing work. We've got to figure out a way to work together because again the last thing I want to see is um you know your smaller mom and pops lose faith in the JULIE system because they're not getting their marks on time. You know that's where I get a little bit upset because I don't want to ever see that happen. So, I want the memberships to really take a look at these outer state excavator courses that we have, the in-state excavator courses that we have. Take advantage of the in in-person trainings that we do. get of extra time as much as you can because again there are multiple um organizations from out of state here in Illinois working currently and they may think that we have the same regulations as Michigan as example but you know with this large project process it's something that you must be aware of when you dig in Illinois.
Yeah, and I think uh you know part of the BEAD process was going to require anybody from out of state to take your one of the modules from JULIE. So they are you know at least formally aware of anything that might be different in Illinois than the state they're coming from. And I think that's really important.
Yep. Because you're going to find here in Illinois guys that the our the DPMs the damage prevention manager for JULIE we really are involved. We're really out there. We really do want to help. I know other states they don't get involved as much but you know again we like to do that so please don't ever think that you're out there and gosh I can't get anybody located I got nobody to talk to you have Bill and I for you guys we Bill is kind of the final straw that once you get to that point but you do have resources out there which brings me to a really good question because I hear this a lot what do we tell the excavator that's out there doing everything right the guy that's giving extra time he's pre-marking the job sites he's giving the maps and he still can't get locates on time.
Well, unfortunately, I mean, that that happens quite a bit. I mean, and we encourage them to continue to do the same. I mean, you know, don't change their pattern. Make sure that they're following all the rules and all the, you know, all the established policies that are out there. Um, don't take any shortcuts. Make sure that they're doing what they have to do. Um, you know, we're working with uh sometimes, you know, we'll make a call to an excavator or to the facility operator, the project owner. And sometimes that that gets a lot more action than, you know, filing reports. I mean, you know, a lot of times me and my team, we don't just, you know, file a report and put out a violation. I mean, we make we make phone calls and we get a lot of a lot of reaction uh from just doing that. Um but uh you know like I said worst case scenario you know they give us a call and we initiate a case you know and uh we try to we as I said we try to make that conversation first because by the time we get a case and we run the case I mean it might take us you know a month six weeks to get through a case um that doesn't get anybody out there put paint on that facility today right so you know when somebody's really having issues you know we try reach out to that to that facility operator and say, "You got an issue. Why don't you go ahead and start working on it now while we're processing this?" So, at least we can kind of reduce the uh lack of locates for that excavator and hopefully kind of reduce the number of cases on that facility operator as well, you know.
I agree. It's uh you heard it here first, folks. They're not just and that's the common misconception I think is you know the ICC they're going to come out and find me you know again we are all trying to get everybody digging. We're all trying to keep everybody safe. JULIE has no authority power whatsoever. You know again I'm just educating and training. When I bring Bill into the mix it's generally you know Bill's going to pretty much tell you know this is what should be done. But thank you for doing that because again you know we're all in this together. So let me ask you though with all that does enforcement help? Do you see changes when you have to enforce things?
I think so. You know, I mean, not only, you know, does it help, it's mandatory, you know, I mean, it's required by the act. So, there's a lot of things, you know, we can't overlook. You know, sometimes you, like I said, we get that um you're just out here to do this and do that. And uh you know, number one is that that the ICC any penalties that we receive, they're all turned back over to you to JULIE. You know, the state does not keep any of that money. It's all it's all u sent in a grant to JULIE for education and whatnot. So, it's not like we don't get any pleasure out of this and we don't uh you know, we don't make any anything by doing this. Um, I think that uh um you know the enforcement is to kind of uh change bad behavior and uh it can eliminate it. I mean because people are people are human. They're still going to keep doing what they're going to do no matter what. But uh you know hopefully you know there's enough of that there's enough that you know we get into the weeds with them that that eventually they do start changing some behavior. Um we have seen a reduction in in uh excavator issues. Um you know as I started when we started out I said a lot most of our uh complaints and cases that we do are on a facility operators. So excavators um you know have seemed like seem like they have improved over the past uh you know few years that I've been here.
So yeah, I think you guys were tracking that at one point. Um damages throughout the year and I you have to correct me if I'm wrong. The years start to run together, but I think we're starting on that that upward trend of or downward trend. I can't remember which one or what. You're the numbers guy, but I think it was getting better as one of the charts that I saw you guys had.
Yeah. Yes. On the excavator side, yeah. the excavator issues or complaints or complaints against excavators have dropped um you know pretty significantly over the years.
So yeah, I think once we get once we get all this fiber in the ground, we get past that, we'll get on to the next thing, which appears to be water service replacements. So, you know, if we can get out in front of head of that, if there's any plumbers on here today, when you're going to be doing a replacing a leadline service, please don't call the entire property in, you know, please pre-mark those areas so you can get a timely locate, right? because the locators are going to push back to you guys if you're going to say you're plating a water service, locate entire property, right? So, you want to narrow that down front of property if the water service comes out the side is the left or right side, whatever it is, just have those areas pre-marked, uh, you know, before. And with the ability now, guys, of being able to pre-mark with white paint stakes or flags, you can give a good verbal extent. Now, you can upload those maps, too, which I that's a huge thing for me again because I'm a I'm a visual learner, guys. If you show me as a locator where you're wanting to dig on that property and I got a duck running in the back and I don't have to locate that thing because that's going to take me two and a half hours, I'm just going to get that much faster and get on to the next guy and it may be your ticket. So, keep that in mind. That's u it's so crucial out there.
Yeah, I don't think excavators realize how important that is to reduce the size of the tickets. Um, you know, like you said, the standard used to be just locate the entire property and uh um they just didn't realize how much time that took for an for a facility operator to go do all that locating.
That also leads me into one more pro tip I'm going to get give you guys out here on the call today that you need to be doing tickets on remote ticket entry, guys. It's going to be the new thing. Come December, we're going to have a more exciting announcement, which I'm going to hold that for now. But if you're not using remote ticket entry, if you're not doing these tickets online, and please consider doing I'll give you an example. We received already in May, we had 3 days of over 10,000 tickets a day. I mean, that's a pretty good chunk amount. So, if people are ining tickets in e- request, they're kind of waiting a little bit because it's got to go back up to the operator who has to fill the information out and then it's sent back. So, if you guys want a quicker way to do this, RTE is it because now you're going to be able to upload those maps. You're going to give a clear and concise verbal extent out there. You're going to see what members are on the bottom. I can't stress that enough. That's just another option. That's pro tip number two. So, that one for you for our listeners out there. I want I want to end with a a final question here of a upbeat moment. Do you have an example where you made a positive impact to an individual's life?
Well, I think everyone likes to think that they, you know, make an impact, you know, other than my kids. You know, I think the uh the folks that I've worked with, I've worked with a lot of folks that have um moved on to different things, you know, including yourself. You know, I'm not saying that I had a big part of that, but uh u you know, with the number of folks that, you know, two to two to the investigators that work for me now used to work for me as well on contract locating. Um a number of others have gone on to you know, damage prevention departments within other utilities. Um, so I I'd like to think that part of what I maybe they learned from me or took away from me, you know, kind of moved them in that direction. So.
100%. You know, it's uh, like I said, listeners, we've worked together with Bill. This is a very again tight-knit community of people. For the locators in the anybody listening out here that thinks you want to get into locating, it's still a fantastic place to be because you get to meet some amazing people. You get to see some the job is constantly changing out there. And you're right, Bill, it does make there's been a lot of us that have moved on from that time and we're in positions where we can help. So, I am very thankful, you know, for the experience that you gave me over the years because now I'm able to take those stories, those experiences, and I'm able to bring it to the Illinois Excavator. And that that is that that's a bright spot for me. So, appreciate that. So, and to our listeners, thank you for tuning in to the JULIE Toolbox Talks. We hope today's conversation with the Illinois Commerce Commission gave you a better understanding of how enforcement and compliance work together to keep everyone safe. For more information and resources, visit JULIEbeforyoudig.com. Stay safe and as always, contact JULIE before you dig.
